GROUNDED Live - 2026: Gavin Fisher - A NZ Dairy Farm Where Cows Graze Trees Too

Welcome to a new season of GROUNDED Live. This season features presentations recorded at GROUNDED Festival 2026, held over two memorable days on Yan Yan Gurt West Farm in Victoria, Australia. Each episode captures the ideas, stories and practical knowledge shared by the farmers, researchers, chefs, practitioners and thinkers who came together to explore healthier landscapes, healthier food systems and healthier communities.

In this session, New Zealand farmer Gavin Fisher shares the story of an organic dairy farm where livestock, fruit trees and diverse farming enterprises work together as one system. Speaking from years of practical experience, Gavin offers an inspiring look at how integrating trees into agriculture can benefit both farm productivity and the wider landscape.

See Gavin's PowerPoint presentation here.

GROUNDED Festival is a cross between a farming conference and a food festival, held on a different farm each year. Every festival is unique, celebrating the people, landscapes and food of its host region through an inspiring line-up of speakers, local producers and hands-on learning.

With multiple stages running concurrently, GROUNDED brings together science and technology, ancient wisdom and fresh thinking. It provides a respectful place for lively discussion, an audience as interesting as the speakers, and an excellent menu of local food, drinks and music, all on a beautiful, regeneratively managed farm.

Each year, we record many of the presentations and make them freely available as the GROUNDED Live podcast. We hope you enjoy the conversations.

Thanks for listening, and if you enjoy this episode, we'd love to welcome you to a future GROUNDED Festival.

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:05

G'day there. I'm Matthew Evans, and I'm the founder and curator of the Grounded Festival. And what follows is the Grounded Podcast. Now, this is the audio that we capture from the speakers in the tents live on the days. Unedited, and I hope you enjoy it. I first got to see Gavin Fisher talking at Underground, our sister festival in New Zealand. And I thought I have to get him out to Australia, especially on a farm where we're talking about trees. Now, Gavin runs a dairy farm, he's got um uh laying hens, he's got a whole bunch of fruit trees. And he's gonna talk about having a New Zealand dairy farm, so an organic farm, where the cows also graze the trees.

SPEAKER_07 0:46

Okay, we're about ready to get started. Um, so anyone who hasn't taken their seats, please come to the front and take a seat. Um it's the lunchtime slot. You can sit next to Ollie, who is fun to sit next to. He's got two seats next to him, neither of which are filled. Um, you should come and sit next to Ollie. Okay. Um so we are here in the lovely, is it the Iron Bark Tent? It is. The Ironbark Tent to hear from Gavin Fisher. Um, Gavin is from Elstow in New Zealand, uh in the North Island. I looked up Elstow on Google Maps and it doesn't exist, which either means Gavin's lying, or um it's one of those magical places that hasn't found its way onto Google Maps, which is amazing. It's near the town of Taroa. Uh, I said that wrong. He'll say it again. Um and yeah, he has a beautiful farm where he's doing some pretty amazing things. He's on the bill um today speaking about his dairy farming, but he is so much more than a dairy farmer. Um, he has deer, he has bees, he has fruit, nuts, so many other things, which I'm sure he will talk a little about today, but probably more so tomorrow on the on the um enterprise stacking. Today he'll be talking about the dairy uh part of his enterprise. Um, a little bit of housekeeping. Um please turn your phones on to silent um and keep your questions to the end. We will have time for questions. Um and that is about all. I will hand over to um Gavin and please welcome him.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Okay, yeah, thank you for that. Um yeah, no, it's a privilege to be here. Uh, haven't actually been over the side of the ditch for quite a few years, actually. Um I did actually contribute to the uh taxation system here quite a few years ago. I did I worked uh a couple of years in the central wheat bout in Western Australia, actually. So um I know back then, because that was let me show my age a little bit, that was back in the middle eighties. Um I'm not too sure if Kiwis are fair game for uh sheep jokes, but back then, my god, I've heard every sheep shagging joke there is. So um don't bother with any of them, I know them all. Tell you one. Who said that? Did someone say say one? No, no, I I I do remember walked into a pub one time and um there's this guy at the back, he yelled out, hey Kiwi, do you share sheep? And I thought, shit, I want to get in front of this, so I did. I said, uh, nah, Mark, get your own. And uh that sort of that sort of cut that out, so I didn't hear any more of it. But anyway, hey, um yeah, today I'm just gonna be speaking uh uh uh about the farm. So I'll give you a little um what I'm gonna do is to start with, it's gonna get run for about a minute and a bit, is just a blast through the middle of the farm, actually, just to give a little bit of visual, and I'll just talk why that's happening if anybody can see it. Um, and then later on I'll have some um other photos up. But pretty much um I've been planting trees on the property for 46 years uh since I left uh secondary school. Um, and those trees had to tick many, many multiple boxes, and um for various reasons I'll go over shortly. We've been certified organic for 26 years, and that doesn't actually describe my food production system. What what really describes is it gives me market access to those countries I'm certified to. Um it's not a formula header farm, and if it was back then it was about three pages of certification regulations, which is a lot bigger now. They don't worry me so much because we um and it's quite pertinent to what's happening in the world right now in aspects to uh fuel, uh fertilizer and all those sort of things. We aren't putting on any fertilizer actually now, um, outside input fertilizer, and uh we've got a really low fuel use. And that was designed many years ago because I believed that um we're gonna have just interruptions with things like that. And I I just couldn't see for us in New Zealand relying on a ship coming from the other side of the world bringing nutrients so we could grow food was a good system. Um, I just thought it was flawed to bits. So I set up another a different system on that. So in the uh in the onset, we um I focused on diversity and on biology. So the the the the main key things were were was that diversity, because that actually helps me have a whole range of biology uh from under the soil right up and the symbiotic relationships between that biology, between the plants, between the animals, and the whole ecology that works around it. And uh for me, I couldn't see by not having trees, by not having shrubs and all those sort of things, how we could actually um have a real good diverse uh food production system and one that I could rely on. Um do I have to push the button for that? Oh, yes, sorry. Yeah. Um and that's that's just going through this the guts of the farm, and then once that's done, I'll I'll just go into the detail of bits and pieces. One of the things I suppose, because I'm in Australia and I've been looking around a little bit, um, is our rainfall is about uh 1100 millimetres a year. So it's it's um you might think that's quite high in some of the places where you come from, but it's not. Um but that doesn't that doesn't happen just in the summertime, all right? So we could get majority of that in the winter time. So and and we don't have irrigation or anything like that. So um I've I've worked on um like I told my bank manager one time when he arrived at home because there was some land that was coming up across the road. I said to him, Why would I want to go out when I can go down and I can go up? And he looked at me as of some twat. But you know, I was serious because the reality is, we're not I I didn't think we were utilising um that land that we had. So I focused on deeper root systems, and then I focused on what we do now a lot of the time, is that finished yet? Um is vertical grazing. So all around every paddock is all planted out, and even in the paddocks have got plantings, and the cows they can reach you know up about this high. And um, if you fold that out both both ways, um, and then also with the canopy grazing, that's a real big area of land that wasn't um I wouldn't have access to to be utilizing. And the other good synergy that goes with that is those trees are shopping, if you like, at a different zone in the soil, and they're actually sharing that nutrient um, not just with the cows or the minerals and all the rest of it, not just with the cows, but also um the cow as a dump, of course, and then that's being broken down. So now the shallow rooting plants have got access to what they didn't have before. So you're sort of supercharging the the uh soil um or the plants in that soil, and you're bringing up what wasn't there before. So it's it's it's a symbolic relationship. And the other side of things, when I when I was talking of diversity, um, and actually I probably should explain that. Sort of off the planet organics is um I've got an Instagram account that I I um put stuff up on, and I I did launch my own brand and logo, it's all registered and stuff, and I sell free-range eggs through that and fruit and nuts and all stuff is starting to come along through that actual brand. But I'll get into that sort of tomorrow when it's that stacking enterprises, a topic on tomorrow about that. So, but that that gets back to the the those trees that I planted, you know, it wasn't just it was uh they weren't just native trees either. Um, it was a whole range of different trees. And I had to take into account we can get quite cold in the winter time. So I didn't want to have the farm cold. So I had to have some trees that were deciduous and some trees with evergreen. And I didn't want um throw that down there, I'll never look at my notes. Um I didn't I didn't want the farm to be cold in the winter time, and I didn't, and then of course I don't want the farm to be baked in the summertime. And uh a lot of the times now, and then then you look at the directions of what you're planting the trees for the um shade and the and the canopy of all that, and um what can what's happening now is we're halving because our paddocks aren't big, you know, the the the our farm's probably the size of a corner of some of the farms over here, actually, to be honest. So it's it's only eight um eighty-eight point four hectares. Um but it's very productive, and um, you know, we just don't normally have the scale over there that you know we sort of do in Australia here. But that doesn't matter, it's only it's it's only a point of scale. But anyways, the advantage of that is with the plantings, it's like in the morning time at 11 o'clock when the district is being baked by the sun, I can be still walking, and I especially put shoes on so I don't look like a hippie today, but um dew all on the ground, it's still got the moisture there, and the temperature is not up. And then in the afternoon, the sun comes in, and now that halves the amount of sunlight and heat that's on the other side of the pasture. So it's it's about using the trees in in that way as well, and also it changes the gas mix on the property. Um, the trees act uh like a pump as well, so they're drawing in water, and anybody will know if you put a if you if you put a straw into a lake and sucked it like that, water will be coming right from over there, you won't see it right from over there. So you're actually drawing in that, and then through our biological um focus on the soil, it's just like one big sponge, actually. And at the moment, the the at home that the the soil's getting rough, it's getting lumpy, like with the pastures, you can feel it under your feet, and what that is is worm castings. It's been and and some of those worms are subsoiling worms, so they're bringing out the subsoil, some of the clays. Um, on our property, if you dig a hole about uh through about three meters down, you'll hit what we call the old swamp floor, because all around our area used to be quite wet and it's been drained over over the years. Um, they used to have actually flax flax mills and stuff like that in the early days, just to give you some idea of how wet it got. So um that old swamp floor being down there, and then you've got um where some of our volcanic eruptions and stuff like that. So I'm tapping into all of that with root systems, and then they're bringing it up and sharing it. And I think um that's how I can get away with not having to be drenching the animals. Um a lot of those trees have got medicinal properties, and then also you've got the cash crops from some of the other um fruiting trees and nut trees and things like that. So um I'll just bang through a couple of and here's an example of me not going to get those things, it's because a cow has. They actually have quite an interesting diet, and just like any of our diets, the the the more range in it and the more diversity and the living organisms on those things, like that that's this isn't it's that's not dead, it's alive, and and and quite often there'll be a little could be a little bug on it, a little scale on it, or whatever. Well, that's going into the the flora of that anime of the gut of that animal, in this case, a rumnin. And that's why I don't actually feed grains to my cows because I've just got this idea in my head that if they were meant to eat grain, they'd have a gizzard, but they haven't, they've got a rumnin, so um they that they're herbivore, so I'll give them the herbage. Um plus they pinch my fruit. So, but we don't mind sharing. Um and here's here's just an example of what length they'll go to to actually uh do that vertical grazing. And you know, cows they're very intelligent, actually, a lot more intelligent than some politicians I've met, to be honest. And um, they will know, they'll walk into a paddock and walk over to the over to a tree, and they'll eat the leaves, eat some of the um branches, which size of my thumb, they'll eat still. Um, and then they'll walk away and start eating the pasture. And if it rains, they'll go back to that tree and they'll have another go because they know the weight of the water holds that branch down a little bit. Now that's intelligent, you know, so we shouldn't underestimate how smart animals are actually. And um we definitely don't underestimate how dumb people can be, so you know. And that's just a couple more examples of the the cows uh just uh browsing. They'll line up, they'll run into the paddock and just line up, try and get some fruit, try and get some trees. Uh another example of um the flaxes chewing on them. Well, that's a good um to help worm burden for the animals. So the self-medicating, and I always say that you know, the medicinal cabinet should be out in the pasture, and it is. So they and and they're intuitively are very clever at self-medicating. And um, I've done plenty of experiments where I've set up um 20-meter strips of different herbs, different plants, and um they're about a meter apart. And then if I got an animal that was a bit off, I'd throw it in there, and you'd just watch what it eats. And then you'd work out can I introduce that into the pasture? And if some of those plants don't like hoops on them, um you can then put them down the fence line or put them down the tree line. So it's it's about giving them what they need when they need it, and they know. And and and some things are really seasonal, what they go for, because they're not stupid there too. They know to eat seasonally. Uh, these are just another little trick is you can um get the these were um poplars actually, and they just grow that you can just chip and they'll just grow up in the pasture and they just chomp on those, which gives them different nutrition than what they would have had before. And here's here's an example of the the grazing they can um you can see right right through there, like that. That's that that's them grazing back there. That they're actually feed jar trees. We've got about four or five hundred of them, and I quite often get chased by ones that are doing um organic um Fijiar juice. So they wanted my feejars and stuff like that. I can't even see the picture myself. So it's just all I want all I'm trying to show is give you a little bit of a visual of the the setup of the farm and the uh how intensively I've planted it out and um trying to explain some of those benefits. And I think that the big the big one is where it's a lot more what's the word for it, um more tolerant to conditions, weather conditions that we seem to be getting these days. So if it gets wet or if it gets dry or anything like that, when the neighborhood's screaming it's a drought and it's really dry, and I've had plenty of groups through the place and they come up the driveway, we've got beautiful lush pasture still. And even blows my mind sometimes that it's still nice and green and it's still lush. You wouldn't realise you wouldn't know that um we've been through a really dry period. I wouldn't call it a drought. Not in Australia, I wouldn't call it a drought. I'd just call it a dry period because it's not that long really in the scheme of things. So we supply our milk to um we did we used to have a co-op, but um a little co-op, and then we had to go sell it to the big co-op after that, which I would prefer to sell more locally. Um I'd I'd prefer to sell raw milk. Um, but the regulations in New Zealand are are so hard on it, they sort of control what you can do a little bit, which is unfortunate. Um, so that's why I can you know get into selling the eggs and and I think if every farmer had fruit trees on their place and um and um and more trees and that diversity, you know, our you you don't have all the problems either. Like um my cost of deduction is next to nothing. You know, the the only time a vet comes into the property is once a year, and that's that's a compliance thing, actually. That's the only reason they come in. Because I don't need them. I'm not not getting them in because I'm letting animals fall over sick or anything like that. Because they're self-medicating, and they're getting good nutrition. And we just heard the last speaker talk about food is thy medicine. We didn't say it like that, but I mean it's an old saying, food is thy medicine. Um but unfortunately that old saying today is food can be my poison because you know a lot of the food isn't like it used to be. And um it's it's you know, an old saying you are what you eat. Well, cows and mammal, the same as what I am, what what humans are. So it's it's their their diet is no different. So but anyway, is there any um any questions in between putting some more photos up? This is just showing that the um the the trees can actually grow food for the cows as well. So those those are those pods hanging down there, those those cows just go nuts on those. And um that's food that I don't have to buy in or or don't have to um I don't have to grow in the pasture, it's just growing on the tree line.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Thanks, Ellie. Hi Gavin, I'm Kate Myram, so I'm a dairy farmer in Gippsland. Okay and um yeah, I'm just starting out on this journey of planting a lot of trees, and I'm wondering if you'd share with us your favorite species, a few of them, and why.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Okay. Um I'm always reluctant to do that, and I'll tell no, no, I'll tell you why. It's because I don't know your I don't know your farm, I I don't know the weather pattern, I don't know your soil. And I always say to I always say to um farmers, you know, if someone rings you up and starts giving advice on what to plant, what fertilised to use, and all that, and they've never been on your farm and never dug a hole, just hang up. You know, it's the cheapest thing you can do. So what I what the the trees that I've selected, I've I've probably tailored. I've looked around the environment that I'm in. Um, and then of course I've I've looked at what I'm what my objective objective is to plant those trees, and then I've selected them. So your objective and what grows in your area is probably different to mine. Well, not probably it is, it's different to mine. So that's how I'd be making the choices more. So than you know, having this template where, you know, I flap my lips and say blah blah blah, it it doesn't mean it would be any good for you.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

It's still really valuable for us to hear why you're selecting what you're selecting for your environment. I'm I was sort of what anyway, I misunderstood environment. Yeah, not more than for what yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Okay. Um well I I'm I'm selecting like some of the some of the trees are nitrogen fixing. Um some of the trees have um medicinal properties. So that's good for the animals. And like I was saying before, some of them lose their leaf at certain times of the year, and that's what I want because I don't I don't want the uh the the shade, I don't want to create the cold and the damp at that time of the year. Um some clearly give you a cash crop, some are really good for and and have berries on. So that um my system is reliant on biology, it's reliant on on insects, it's because other vectors that that um inoculate inoculate the um good fungi and and spread it and all that sort of stuff. So there's a whole ecological sort of reason why I plant things at the same time. So I I sort of look at it in a in totality, so uh the whole picture instead of in isolation.

SPEAKER_13 23:23

What sort of fruit trees are you planting?

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Oh, I haven't got that long. Um apples, peaches, plums, nectarines, um oranges, mandarins, avocados, um almonds, walnuts.

SPEAKER_07 23:40

Which uh which fruit trees you're not planting?

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Ones I can't get hold of. No, I'll just and and and they're not they're not just all together. And I think that that's that's where I can get uh around the the disease side of things without having to use the sprays or and it's the same as you know, I quite often get asked, well, what did you what do you use for this or what do you do for that and the aspects to um a solution, and I always and I always say to them, like, you know, you want to look at eliminating those problems so you don't need I don't because I don't care if it's an organic um remedy that you're using or a non-organic remedy, which I do, but I mean because I can't use not non-organic one, but um if you're doing that, that means you know, an analogy I normally use is if you've got a rock next to your bed and every morning you wake up and you kick it and stub your toe, you're not just gonna leave the bloody thing there because you've got an organic bandage or a plaster next to your bed, are you? You remove the rock. So it doesn't really matter if you've got something organic to replace the problem, you you or um or mask the problem, you look at getting rid of it. And that's the approach that I take. And I I'm I'm very privileged that I'm third generation on the property, and I and I mean that privilege because it gave me the opportunity to farm it, where that opportunity isn't so much there for younger people that that it was when I was there. Um and I talked to my grandfather, I seen what my father did, and then I seen the problems that happened with some of the practices that they changed. So it was very easy to see something that they changed and then they got the problem. All I did is just kick that out. So then I didn't have a problem.

SPEAKER_07 25:39

Yes. I just love to know what the neighbors think and how many of them are kind of learning from your example.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Good question. Um well, I I think one thing I was because I I went out of the 46 years, I went away for a couple of years and came back. You know, did the backpack on and went nuts overseas and all the rest of stuff everyone does. And when I came back, that's what that's when I really introduced the um um biological side of things, ecological side of things, got the farm certified. Because the family had a good name, I think the neighbours thought he'll get over it. You know, he's come from good stock, he'll be all right. And if I'd tried, I think if I'd try gone into another neighborhood and tried it, no one would have talked to me. But um, back to your question on what the neighbours are like, they're really good. Like I get on really good with my neighbours, it's about respect. So um I don't necessarily agree with that, well, I don't, I don't agree with a lot of their farming methods. And at the beginning, they totally didn't agree with my farming methods, but we respected each other, and um, which is really good. Uh but now they're asking more questions, you know. They're seeing when my my neighbor rang up and then and he and I asked him how he's going, and he said, Um, I'm not very happy watching my organic neighbor grow grass, and I'm not. And I said to him, 'Well, what's the problem?' He said, One word, black beetle. I had to remind him that was two words. But um, and it was from a bit of land, it was one farm, and we cut it in half, we we we divided it up, and I put a boundary fence down the middle of a paddock, and I've been watching that's been a 20-year experiment watching him farm a different way to me, and all these issues that they're having, and I'm not having them. And that land had been farmed the same for 50 years.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

What do you call your type of farming?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

That's a good question, mate.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Because I I have a word for it because I've been looking into exactly what you're doing, and there's the first thing I can find is centropic agroforestry, which seems to be huge in New Zealand at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Um Yeah, see, I don't I don't get hung up with titles because you know, if you look at some of those title things, um you know, the the the one thing that we're doing is certified organic because that that's it's being audited and and and gets a stamp on it and that goes into the market. So that's that's a that's that's a real thing there. Um and the other the other titles are wrapped around my practices. Well, those practices will tick being biological, ecological, agroforestry, ticks all those boxes as well. So, you know, it's like I I don't know what one word you would call it. It's just I'm looking at the land and thinking, what's the best for the land, what's the best for the for the the ecology, the the um especially like all the the the insects, the living organisms and all that sort of stuff, because they are the ones that are farming for me. All I do is foster that process, nurture it, and I'm and I'm producing food that I think is very nutrition nutritional for farmers, um for for um humans. So yeah, I don't I don't know, everyone would call it different things, you know, just like you you name you coined a name.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Because what you're doing seems almost textbook centropic agroforestry. Yeah, I I don't know. Just the only difference is they're ecological succession orientated, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Yeah. Oh yeah, that makes sense, but yeah, I I as I say, I'd I yeah, maybe that's what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_12 29:51

Oh yeah. Um we have 1100 mil rainfall, we're in the hills, um, green and winter cold, and we've been regenerative for a while and a lot of diversity and plant mixed species with saw keys, so we're getting diversity there as well. Um, poplar trees, which the cattle eat and love. We've got um native shrubs underneath a lot of our plantations, and we've also put in native um timber plantations. I'm looking for the next step, and I was interested that you said about the fruit and the nuts. We've got the Joas in our um orchard garden. Do the cattle eat the fajoas or were was that really for a different enterprise? And do you have, given that our our environment is similar to yours, do you have suggestions as to what fruit trees or nut trees that I could then add to increase diversity? I know you didn't want to answer that question, but I guess I've given you that we are actually like you.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Yeah, well, it probably falls into my topic tomorrow of stacking enterprises, actually, to be honest with you. Um, because I'm doing all sorts of things like on in those tree lines, I'm adding in like um, you know, 80 passion fruit vines um that I'm growing long ways and and grapes, and so I'm just tearing, tearing, tearing, tearing, tearing, stacking. No, they're not for the cattle. So it is fence where the cattle can reach and browse to a certain stage, otherwise they'll trash the place, you know. Um, and and so that protects some of those when it comes to your fruit trees and nut trees and and and such. Yeah. Okay, yeah, I'm with you. Well, I mean they do um okay, so the the quick question was, was there a specific um fruit tree or nut tree or whatever put in for the cattle to graze on? Um no, not not not really. Um my focus, I don't know, I haven't really I didn't plan most of things. I just farm by the gut and and and and just off instinct. And if I thought, I'll plant a fruit tree over there or another one there, another one there, and you know, and then I've stood back and I was like, God, all those holes are dug and all these trees that are growing. So, you know, when I first started things, there wasn't a lot of information. And I actually just shut the farm gate and I just got on and did stuff. And and when some people heard what I was doing, they said it wouldn't work, and that, and I just didn't listen to it and just kept doing what I wanted to do. I'm just glad it worked.

SPEAKER_08 32:47

Yeah, we uh grow a lot of ryegrass and clover uh and uh higher in protein protein and the deeper rooting plants like uh pasture plants like Phalaris and Coxfoot are more cellulose and less protein. I'm just wondering what what sort of uh are you gr uh use utilizing similar varieties? Surely you would have ryegrass there.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Oh look, we've got plenty of ryegrass that cat under under the system that I'm running, it's quite interesting. Um depending on what the weather is, depending on whether it's dry, wet, cold, hot, and I'd love a lapse lap time or whatever you call it, camera to be just going click, click, click right throughout the whole season. What you see in my pasture one month, the composition changes for the next month depending on what the weather's doing. But to answer your question, yes, we've got ryegrass, yes, we've got clover, um, and other speed.

SPEAKER_08 33:49

What are your deeper rooting? You've you've emphasized you're going down. Okay, okay. Polaris would go down. I'm just wondering Lucerne.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

I've got Lucerne amongst the pasture.

SPEAKER_08 33:59

But you can't graze that, can you?

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_08 34:01

Oh yeah? Yeah, actually, it's probably in some of the sorry, before you go up on that, I'm really interested. Polaris has got quite a large cylinder-like seed head. Um, and it's you know, if you if you don't watch it, it becomes uh sod bound uh and and just very straw-like. But it's it's it's sort of used in the more secondary country, I guess, where it's got to get down further to get into the moisture, etc. Are you using anything like that? Is what my I'm asking. Okay. I'm not asking to name a variety.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Okay, no, that the close the closest I'd be using that does that root system thing in the pastoral sense is loosening.

SPEAKER_08 34:46

Yeah, okay. Yeah. See, here you've got to be careful that the grazing, you know, it can break up the nodes. I mean, you can irrigate, loosen, and cut it maybe up to ten times a year, but for hay or whatever, but uh it's generally not used as a as a standard grazing um plant.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Correct, yeah. And I've got a mate that works for Pioneer, and he told me seven years ago what I wanted to do, which which what I did is I stitched it into the pasture. He said it won't persist. It's still in there, and I'm grazing it. So sometimes what we get told, and sometimes what you can do, and this is this is why I do lots of experiments, are two totally different things. Absolutely, it's not standalone. Absolutely. Yeah, because there's heaps of them now, so that yeah, all those things add up, oh, you know. No worries.

SPEAKER_04 35:50

Hello. Uh great to see you on this stage talking about this, Gavin. Great to see other people here interested in farming like this. And my question for you is if you started again tomorrow, what would you do differently?

SPEAKER_01 36:03

God, I hate that question. It's not the first time I've been asked it, mate. Um what would I do differently? I don't know if I'd do anything differently, actually. We've been probably pretty lucky, haven't really had any big hulk-ups, you know. Like, no, I just backed myself and I just did things and and um in the era when when I started doing things, there wasn't um there wasn't a lot of available literature either. And and I actually looked at that as being a good thing, not a bad thing, because it wasn't confusing me. Because what I did is I went to a couple of discussion groups, you know, and and to to to learn off the experienced farmers and stuff. And I used to come home and I was I was confused because what I heard and what was the chatter in my head were two totally different things. And um, so these days now you hear so many different stories and conflicting stuff, and yeah, I would have found that really confusing. So, yeah, no, I wouldn't do anything different, actually.

SPEAKER_13 37:15

Hi, um, so I'm particularly interested in what you've said about uh self-medicating uh herb growth for your cattle. Um and uh just as a quick side question, do your cattle ever get apples or anything stuck down their throat when they eat? No.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

No, never, never have, never have, and you probably go home and a bit too dead with it.

SPEAKER_13 37:41

Um okay, so so um what resources were available for you? And so what are you looking for in the cattle? Like there's worms, and are you looking for copper deficiencies or something and sourcing plants that are specific, you know, for those rows, or or can you just elaborate a little bit about what you're doing with that? And uh presume that that is a big reason why you can keep all your you know certain elements really healthy and organic.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Yeah, well, I do a lot of um cuttings and and and I I grow a lot of stuff myself too, you know, dewed and begged and and um things like that. I I know how to graft, so I've got apple trees with three, four, five different varieties on it to extend the season out. So um, yeah, with with plantings now, it's pretty, it's it's it's not too hard to um when you can go to nurseries, you can, you know, garden books are probably really good, um, and things like that if you want to get information. But I just thought, well, in the end, uh, you know, I just wanted to plant all these sort of things. I just went out there and did it. I I didn't put too many blocks in the way. I didn't overthink stuff. I could be accused of not thinking too much or at all. So um, yeah, I I I think we are our own worst enemies sometimes. And we we put we look for the negative harder than we look for the negative, um for the positive. Does that answer your question? No? I'll talk to you later.

SPEAKER_11 39:20

Yeah, you're going. Um interested to know whether you're just doing perimeter trees or row tree rows or that sort of thing. And what stops the destruction of the trees?

SPEAKER_01 39:34

Okay. Um, I'm I'm doing all sorts when it comes to the planting. So there's there's plantings in the paddock, there's um perimeter plantings as well. And that's that's and and paddocks that go different ways, so there's a challenge there of what you plant and how high they go, and and um whether they're deciduous or evergreen because of shade factors and all sorts of stuff. Um and the protection side of things, I don't know if I've where you you can see that like it's it's fenced. They can still reach and graze, but they can't trash the place because they will. So I've it and so that's electric fence wire for us. That's that's what stops them. And then if I want if I want them to graze it a bit and and take it back before it gets on the fence or anything like that, I'll turn it off for a bit. And um not for not for a long time because if they are smart, they'll just get made and get right into it. So yeah, it's just a mix of a mix of where I plant things here.

SPEAKER_10 40:50

I was gonna ask you to elaborate a little bit more on the fencing. Well, so you just turn the fence off and then that gives you more access. You don't have to pull the fence down or put them in actually in the row at all?

SPEAKER_01 41:00

No, no, well, I the thing is to get your fence in the right place in the first place. But I angle like say this is a uh a steel post or warator or something like that. Um, instead of putting it like that, a ram it in like that, and the animal can still graze under there, it can't reach too far over the top, but it can still reach over the top. So they've still got access to stuff, and then then when when the stuff grows, they can still get it, but they they they can't climb right over. But um the the turning off the fence is more for the flaxes and stuff, especially in the winter time, and um they they'll just push against it a little bit, and that's where you can't leave it off too long. Yeah.

SPEAKER_12 41:49

I'm just wondering in your environment what the sweet spot is for percentage of tree cover over the whole property?

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, well clue actually. Um to be honest with you, I've never really for me, you know, if I if I was planting a whole lot of um say evergreen trees, that sweet spot would be a whole lot different because um now the farm would be cold and damp in the winter time. So what what I've done is not sort of concentrated on that percentage or anything, I've just looked at the functionality. And I suppose the the farm's the farm's pretty flat, actually. It's and that's one of the reasons I planted it out because it was boring as hell. But with with with all the the plantings, it actually you can't see it's flat. And I always joke that you know the steepest climb is the two steps out of the cowship, um cow ship, cow cow shed pit. And um, and it's true because it's really flat. So that that percentage thing is would mean different things to different farms depending on your terrain and the trees that you're planting, I think is my answer anyway.

SPEAKER_07 42:58

Good question. I'm gonna take um a license as the host. Um Does it have to be it sounds like it's a labor of love for you in some way? Um Does it have to be? Like, is that is that what makes you different? There was a question earlier about your neighbours, and then you know, they are starting to ask questions. I'd be interested to know what do you think has made them start to ask questions? But do you think they'll get there or is it a labor of love, or maybe they will get to the point where it's a labor of love? I don't know. I'm asking you lots of questions.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Okay, no, they they'll I'll start with the neighbor one actually. They are getting there because they see things, you know, and and they've been watching for a long time, and I'm just um I have questioned why it's taken them so long. But um, you know, we we we all have to do things when when we're comfortable. And one of my neighbours, I said to him, he'd planted some um plantain, some oh no, it's chicory, sorry. And I said to him, What's that weed growing in your paddock? Used to think those were all weeds and stuff. And uh he said, Oh no, that chicory goes really, really well. Because that's what he said to me when he first seen it in the paddy. He said, Well, what are you growing weeds for? But now he's changed his mind because he could see in this if we had a really, really dry period, you know, I had it was all green and stuff like that, and what that was one of the plants that was still green because they got a longer taproot. And the other side is just because a lot of those subswelling worms that I was talking about, that they eat litter. So because I'm on a longer rotations, uh, because of the litter from the trees, those subswelling worms they create a nutrient highway. And um, and actually, fun fact, um, 46% nitrogen is the is the the you know, if you see a worm go across the concrete and and that um when it's leaving there is 46% nitrogen. So, and and also then the fungi comes in and stuff like that, and your root systems start going down deeper and deeper. And then through photosynthesis, through your carbons and everything like that, you actually start building topsoil, deeper topsoil, carbon. And when I got into things, I didn't I wasn't thinking carbon. I knew carbon was the building block of life, but I wasn't I wasn't planting trees for carbon, I wasn't farming the the farm or the soil for carbon. I was just looking at it as a um more from a biological and ecological aspect. And probably to answer your question, yes, it's a it's a it's a a passion, some would say an addiction. Um, and I think you've got to love what you do. I love what I do, and uh that's the fuel in my tank, you know. That's what fuels me to dig so many holes, and um and it's not anything you do, anything that you like and you do is not classed as work, but we earn a really good income, and um and I think we produce good food and you know good life.

SPEAKER_07 46:06

If one of those neighbors were to say, well, I I think I've seen enough that I I want to I wanna do something like what you're doing. Going from where they are from the sounds of it to something closer to what you're doing, like how would you help someone to take that first step?

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Well, I think the the the important part is to realize each neighbor is individual and aspects of one of the cur first conversions, the head actually. Um but the next one is if if if they want to change is their past practices and what they're doing. So you have to tailor that into the into the equation to help them. Otherwise, they could just fall on their ass, you know, stop growing grass and all sorts of stuff, you know, if they'd be piling on lots of nitrogen, if they're being dependent on a lot of palm kernel that they use in the deer industry over over home and things like that. So you really got to tailor it. And um, that's where I don't like template information. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 47:20

I saw the cattle were red and white. Are they red and white Parisians or something else? The dairy cattle.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Okay. So the the whole herd is A2 for a start. Um, majority is um nearly all of them are polled now, so with the genetics, so I don't have to um just bud or anything like that, they don't go horns. Um the foundation of the herd is airshire, because uh um I I back to I don't care what a brochure says, I like airshires, you know, and and they're uh and if I liked just frisians, I would have freesians because I look at them a minimum of twice a day, a minimum of twice a day, and um I find the airshire as a is a robust animal uh animal. I I call the cow a bovine biological uh bovine biological harvester because that's what it pretty much is.

SPEAKER_09 48:12

Apparently they'll handle that roughie, whereas the black and white freezing need water rye grass, like uh the Germansy lead and white freezing call digest the the rougher um uh more cellulose, I guess, rather not up.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

I know they're a lot hardier. Like we we had uh probably our worst route was 2007, 2008 season, actually, so I'm going back a couple years, but um all the ones that were foraging and going hard with airshires. Um but I've crossed them over with the jersey, so the first vigor cross, so the jersey over the airshire, and no, that first vigor is a really nice animal, and and and I've tailored it to me, like for the size of the animal um and things like that. You know, it's like if you had a steep country, you wouldn't you wouldn't want 600k um Frisians sliding down the hill. So it's it's and that's what would happen. So it's it's that's you have to sort of design your practices and your farming around your land and and and what you've got.

unknown 49:19

Thank you.

SPEAKER_07 49:22

We want a recipe.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

Yeah, there's no recipe. Recipes for disaster, you may be.

SPEAKER_07 49:28

We do have time for one or two more questions. Yep, one down the back.

SPEAKER_05 49:35

Um, just in terms of your farm workload, how much of your time is dedicated to managing the trees that you've planted? You know, we've got a little orchard, and I spend a lot of time pruning and netting and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

Yeah, no, good question. Um I probably should manage them more than we do. Um, but I use the the cows manage a fair bit, to be honest. I use them as as as managers. Um and yeah, I I I was feeding a lot of the trees and stuff to the cows through a chipper at one stage when we had a big drought, so I chipped it all. Yeah, to you had to have the quite a bit of green and soft um sappy stuff to go with it. It was too hard, it would get it, they they wouldn't break it down. But they were just hoovering it up out of the paddock like um like maize. Um but yeah, I don't put a lot, I don't I don't put a lot of time into it. Um and it and it depends on the tree that you're growing. You know, I'd look at trees if the if the shallow rooting trees, you don't like you don't want a tree that's got a root sticking out in the paddock, and say if you were using machinery or something like that, um cutting hay or something, it's just gonna wreck your machines. But I try not I try and keep the tractor parked in the shed as much as I can, actually, to be honest.

SPEAKER_07 51:01

Last question, do we really have time for one more question? You sound pretty busy. Like, do you think it comes to a point where you become jack of all trades, master of none?

SPEAKER_01 51:15

Probably the last one. Um well it depends on the individual. I mean, if you if you if you don't know when you you need extra labour, that's that's that's your own problem, isn't it, really, at the end of the day. Um it's myself and my wife that run the operation, actually. And uh yeah, I am busy. Uh, but I still find um I run a martial arts class, I ride Ducaddies, I still go on holiday, I still do things, I'm here. Um I had to go like hell to get here, to be fair, to your point. But yeah, I I don't know what else would it be doing. I mean, I'm only 62, so I've got to keep doing shit. And and I've got a lot more years in me, so you know, you gotta I think I just don't want to be in a position where I have to do it. I think that's that's probably an ugly position to be in, but I still want to do it, so it's all good.

SPEAKER_07 52:13

On that point, um I don't I'm not sure if you have kids, but uh is there a succession conversation?

SPEAKER_01 52:21

Uh yeah, I do have kids. Um couple of daughters, so you know. That succession side of things hasn't been done that well, to be honest with you. Um it's probably and and probably my advice on that would be that's probably should be a big focus on anybody's business. And I think historically, especially in my era, maybe, I don't know, um it hasn't been done that well. So yeah, there's there's there's a lot, there's there's work being done on that right now, put it that way. You know, and there's a trust, there's a trust involved, it's because it's a you know it's a family operation. Um, and then there's other land that's owned by itself, myself and Sharon, and and um which was my wife. So um, yeah, there's a whole lot of moving parts in that, but I I I know where your question's coming from, and it's a good one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 53:20

That's about all we have time for. So please give a big hand for Gavin.